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Help Ripple Owner: John
Sydney, Australia
Posted on: Monday 9th November 2009

 
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Dear All. To my great surprise I have come across no less than five scholars who actually dispute the traditional view on the locative case in written classic Latin. I find this quite outrageous! These scholars, no doubt liberal, list sources that are inconsistent on how the locative is formed. There is a disagreement with the classic scholars like Thomas Hewitt Key on the locative. Key argues that in the first and second declension, the locative singular is identical with the genitive form and that in plurals it is always the same as the dative-ablative form. This has always been taken as correct. Where they differ is in the locative forms for the singulars of the third, fourth and fifth declension. (It probably never occurs in the fifth declension! So the need for debate on this subject simply bear no meaning) For third declension singular, some say that it may take either the dative or the ablative form, while others say it takes the dative form. (Most of the examples they give seem to be the same as the dative in form.) For fourth declension singular, one says the dative forms are used, but the only actual example seems to be the fourth declension word domus whose locative is domi. But domus affords other problems since it was moving from fourth to second declension in classical times, and this form is consistent with its second declension paradigm. How then, my friends are we to react to this attack on classic interpretation of grammar? My own close studies of Cicero’s lengthier works leaves me sound assure that Key is correct and the usurping youngsters wrong. I give you some examples to judge for yourself:

Principal parts of nouns
The principal parts of a noun are of course its nominative and genitive singular forms, for example:
matella, matellae. nf. chamber pot.
From the genitive ending -ae, the noun matella is identified as a first declension noun by such authorities as St Thomas of Aquinas. Dropping the genitive ending gives the base matell- to which endings are added.
Some nouns have plural forms only. For these nouns, the principal parts are the nominative and genitive plural forms. For example:

castra, castrorum. nn. camp.
Again the genitive identifies the declension, in this case second declension, as well as the base castr- to which endings are added. There should be no need for further discussion. These up and coming scholars have soundly misunderstood the whole background declination.
To argue on basic usages of the various cases of the Nominative has been the pastime for learned men and ladies for a long time since no clear sentence structure may be agreed on. Roman books on the subject notes the differences in preferences but do not give us a decision about the correct use. It is correctly assumed that four forms were deemed acceptable by Roman scholars. However, in his great dissertation, Ovid made it quite clear about the correct rule and this was later taken up by the late Pope Clemence in 1520. Thus it is clear that:

• Nominative should be the subject of a sentence, predicate nominatives should include for example:
The boat is anchored to the shore.
When the silly clowns visit Rome, the emperor's sense of humor is a surprising sight to behold.
Venus, your new hairdo is a pathetic mess.
• Genitive: Possession or attachment. The genitive case was disappearing from colloquial lingua vulgarii and was often replaced by the preposition de followed by the ablative case.
When the silly clowns visit Rome, the emperor's sense of humor is a surprising sight to behold.
• Dative: Indirect object. Like the genitive case, the dative case was also disappearing from colloquial Latin. The preposition ad followed by the accusative case was sometimes used as a substitute in colloquial Latin.
The silly clowns sometimes give the emperor a hard time.
The silly clowns sometimes give a hard time to the emperor.
• Accusative: Direct object, object of prepositions of motion towards
When the silly clowns visit Rome, the emperor's sense of humor is a surprising sight to behold.
The silly clowns sometimes give the emperor a hard time.
The emperor is travelling to Rome by boat.
• Ablative: Means (instrument), object of prepositions of position and of motion away
The boat is anchored to the shore.
The emperor is travelling to Rome by boat.
• Locative: Location or position, this case is a remnant of the old Indo-European Locative case. It is used primarily with place names and a handful of nouns denoting classes of places like domus (home). For most purposes it has been superseded by the use of the prepositions in or ad followed by the ablative case.
We bake our own cookies at home.
The emperor lives in Rome.

I trust this will settle the matter!


 
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35- Responses
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Man Juha Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Wives
Yeah wives are shit, I have a husband, much better!
Man Tommy Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Guys Guys Guys
Guys Guys Guys, calm down. Keep the debate on a friendly level. Don't be rude to each other or else I will become angry.
Man Julian Carax Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Wives
Ah, my young friend, if you could read greek, you would know that even the gods have problems with their wives.
Man Daniel Sempere Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Always ready with a word from the shadows... I heard, by the way, that you are having problems with your wife?
Man Julian Carax Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Daniel my friend, do you not kow that you must raize to the ground if you want to build it anew? The locative of today is imperfect, the new use would simplify it make the language of the ancients more available to the masses.
Man Daniel Sempere Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
How about giving the revised edition of Plinius the Elder's report from Ercolano? Please correct me if I am wrong, but does that work not only provide staggering visual aid to the event, but also cites vitnesses in the classical locative-use?
Man Wilfredo Camagüey Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Verdad companero. However, we must see the locative-debate in light of the drastic changes that have previously occurred. Is it not true that recent studies have shown that many of the grammatics uses previously believed to be the latin of Rome have showed to be the lingue iglesiae? This new theories of the locative use surely have some good points to consider in the lingue pura/lingua vulgarii question?
Man Fermín Romero de Torres Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Whereas I am usually in favour of changing old for new, obsolete with the better. This debate about the locative use and whether or not it should be regarded as a proof of it's use that Ovid may have used it leaves me puzzled. I believe we have used locative as we use it today for long enough to consider it a fait accompli.
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Why is there such a stubborn refusal to accept new claims? You must surely agree on the fact that neither Ovid nor any other classical authority writes on paper that Diodorus' example of the locative should be followed? And S. Galvanini, yes, I quite agree, growing brassica is not a very nice career prospect.
Man Pier Paolo Galvanini di Lucca Posted on the 16th November 2009 Report this post
Brassica
Per favore signori, I urge you. I f we cannot have this debate in a civil manner, all of us academic will in the end have to content ourselves with cultivating brassica.
Man Juha Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
gay related
Is this article in some kind of way gay-related!
Man vickybeckett Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
Fascinating article but I
Fascinating article but I wholeheartly disagree
Man desmoulins Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
les technicalites du grammaire
C'est sans doubt les fallacies du monsieur Vecchio dans ca libre 'lingua dei: latine della chiesa sopre gli anni' que est le grand bete du debat! Il ment sur toutes des pages de cette libre! Rien academique pense que les textes du cette 'clique du malheur' ensemblent de Vecchi est rien d'un curiosite!
Man Pier Paolo Galvanini di Lucca Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
Ovid
Even though Ovid can't be 100% proven to have quoted the passage by Diodorus on the locative it is the most certain we have! There is no reason why he should not have done so. The sources of Clemence are in best case questionable!
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
I see that there are more of us who are unaccustomed to the english language! Your spelling is not too perfect I must say. And concerning Ovid, it has NEVER been agreed that his grammatica is based upon the texts of Diodorus! Show me any academic evidence on the matter! Has the Australian wine taken to upset your nervous system! You should go back to those cliffs of Capri and see if you could cultivate any brassica there!
Man John Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Not only is campeggio unable to use correct English grammar, he also comes dragging with the same arguments as always! Diodorus is definataely more reliable as a source on the locative as he was indeed cited by Ovid! campeggio should content himself with cultivating brassica.
Man campeggio Posted on the 10th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Alerted to this debacle by my former colleague Roberto Vecchio I see that the old ways of interpretation still have not left the minds of reactionary and conservative men! I greatly reduce the argument about Diodorus by not being able to quote anyhting relevant of Ovid using the locative as described by Posidonius in the famous debate concerning the javeline-question. Why is it so hard to accept scholarly tradition and rules by following the recomendations by Clemence? The correct use of the locative have not and cannot be argued to be sanctioned by either Ovid nor Plinius (as I suspect the next argument would concern)!
Man Juha Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
l
Canis meus id comedit"
Man åke svensson Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Bibamus
Bibamus, moriendum est
Man KimLarsen Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
You are quite right Trond, but also consider: Accensa domo proximi, tua quoque periclitatur and acclinis falsis animus meliora recusat!
Man Trond Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Abyssus abyssum invocat. Accede ad ignem hunc, jam calesces plus satis.
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Carpe Rectum!
Man Pier Paolo Galvanini di Lucca Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Per favore, Signori! A verbis ad verbera and a verbis legis non est recedendum. That must always take first place. S. Roberto, a re decedunt.
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
A posteriori - From what comes after. Inductive reasoning based on observation, as opposed to deductive, or a priori. You should learn from it!
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Don't you draw the Justinian Debate into this! It has nothing to do with the locative! That sounds pretty self assured coming from someone who doesn't even declare a clear standing in the Cicero-question! I assume you belong to the 'Sisserro' conclave? A bove majori discit arare minor!
Man John Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Aah, Ivam, my furry friend. Me and the other gentlemen are merely discussing some interesting aspects of latin grammar that SOME of us just can't get right! And Roberto, you just don't happen to be the author of 'grammatica latina moderno per alta-scuola'? That's possibly the worst pile of lies ever published by anyone about the justinian debate!
Man Ivam Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
don't understand
John I don't understand a russian shit of this post. Can you please explain what is going on?????
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
These age old arguments about Diodorus! His editing work is vastly overrated since Ovid did not pay resepct to his use of the locative when collecting and writing for his Naturae. According to good scholarly tradition such an unclaimed use of grammatic rules must be discarded and thus PLACED BEHIND the first reliable and well quoted source on the matter, which is Clemence.
Man John Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Signor Vecchio goes to great lenght in defending the new interpretations of the locative issue. But in doing so he uses exactly the same, invalid, arguments as the new scholars. Why should we consider Clemence as the authority on this matter when Diodorus is a more reliable source of lingua vulgarii? It has for long been taken as truth that Clemence, a bright scholar of latin as he was, was influenced by the reformed school of lingua pubblicii. Hence, his work must be studied in regard to what St Thomas have said about reform and scholarly work in the late 12th century. I do not understand why Diodorus should be disregarded? There are as many sources claiming that he did edit his work himself and that he did so according to Diodorus!
Man robertovecchio Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
You have totally misunderstood the use and rules orchestrated by his late Holiness Pope Clemence. He did not at all argue or in any way write that the version of Diodorus should be the one used! As Ovid never himself commented on the use of locative - this was edited some 10 years after the publication of his collected works - there can be no other way to see it rather than use the locative as Clemence exemplified as he would have been the most senior authroity!
Man Paul Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
agree
I totally agree with the Italian guy, poseidon the fitfh is my mentor and I love his work. Hi is the godfather of Latin.
Man Tommy Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Never.
I don't agree! But idon't know a shit about latin history. However I think that the Italian guy has a good point there.
Man Pier Paolo Galvanini di Lucca Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Signori, I don't know that there's any evidence of Posidonius producing literature in Latin; as far as I know his work was to a large extent in Greek? So, if we follow the common assumption that Diodorus was heavily reliant on Posidonius for Book V of his history, then ἑλικοιειδῆ may in fact be a word Posidonius himself used, I agree that after assuming this, the step to discredit the new interpretations is not far.
Man KimLarsen Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
Agreed! There is even more evidence to support the cause of the classic interpretation, have a look at this example: The key phrase is "pars incuruos per omnia habet reflexus" and keywords for the issue at hand are incuruos and reflexus. incuruos naturally means "crooked" or "curved" and reflexus means "bend back". Seeing these words pushes me to think that the correct translation is from the 1814 Booth edition of "others bowed and bending backwards" rather than "spiral" from the 1939 Loeb edition. This migh have led students of the Loeb translation to take a wrongturn when faced with texts coming from lingua vulgarii instead of pubblicii.
Man Trond Posted on the 9th November 2009 Report this post
Technical Disputes on the locative case
I agree quite strongly! It is overwhelmly clear that the 1798 edition of Diodori Siculi Bibliothecae historicae libri qui supersunt, Volume 3 translated by Petrus Wesseling and published by ex typographia Societatis agree with this view. Here is the latin version of the original passage I mostly quote to settle the matter when debate appears among my peers: "Pars horum in directum fabricata est; pars incuruos per omnia habet reflexus, ut in ictu non tantum fecent, verum etiam frangant carnes, hastilique que reducto vulnus convellant and dilamcinent."
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